Muhammad Ali and Sri Chinmoy

Part I

Conversation

Muhammad Ali: That’s right.

Herbert Muhammad: Right.

Sri Chinmoy: As you said, the root is the spiritual, the spirit within us. The body comes and goes.

Muhammad Ali: That’s right.

Sri Chinmoy: But the soul is eternal. In God’s Eye, in Allah’s Eye, in Allah’s Heart, you will never be defeated.

Muhammad Ali: That’s right.

Sri Chinmoy: That is because you are fighting for Allah’s manifestation on earth. Any outer defeat will never be a real defeat. On the physical plane, after ten, twenty, thirty years, if you do not maintain the same strength, this is a physical thing. But the soul’s strength, the spirit’s strength you will never lose because you have become inseparably one with Allah’s Will.

Muhammad Ali: I heard something spiritual. I heard something once that says he who fights for the cause of God secures victory over his enemies.

Herbert Muhammad: That’s right.

Sri Chinmoy: Absolutely.

Conversation — part II

Muhammad Ali: I’ve got to see you again. Where can I contact you? Who can I call?

Sri Chinmoy: We have a Centre here.

Muhammad Ali: Do you have one in New York?

Sri Chinmoy: I live in New York.

Muhammad Ali: You live in New York?

Sri Chinmoy: New York is my headquarters, and I have quite a few Centres there. I go to the United Nations every Tuesday and Friday.

Muhammad Ali: Then we will see you all the time.

Herbert Muhammad: I notice your garment, the garment you have on. Does this represent the sunlight or does it have any other significance — the orange colour?

Sri Chinmoy: This is my religious garment. Orange represents the manifestation of God’s Light. Each colour has a significance. Red signifies God’s Power. Blue signifies God’s Infinity. Green is God’s Dynamism. Each colour has a spiritual significance. So this colour, golden-orange, is the manifestation of God’s Light. Sometimes I use orange, sometimes blue, sometimes green when I hold meditations at our Centres and at the United Nations. When we hold meditations there, we pray like this: [Sri Chinmoy folds his hands.] When we pray, we speak to God, Allah, and ask Him to give us His blessings. And when we meditate, Allah speaks to us and we try to listen to Him; we try to execute His Will.

Muhammad Ali: I want to ask you a question. I am just learning because I am an ignorant boy. In this fashion I have always seen the Christians pray. [Muhammad Ali folds his hands.] And the Muslims, who are Eastern people, pray in this fashion. [Muhammad Ali cups his hands.] What is the difference?

Sri Chinmoy: It is very significant. About the Christians I don’t know. I am an Indian, and according to my Indian tradition when we pray with folded hands, at that time our consciousness goes upward. When you pray with your hands cupped, at that time God comes down and you are trying to receive Him.

Muhammad Ali: I see. When we do like this, at that time Allah comes down and we receive. This position is to receive.

Sri Chinmoy: We receive Allah’s blessings, Allah’s infinite blessings, like this. But when we fold our hands, at that time we pray to go up and reach God’s highest Height.

Herbert Muhammad: That’s true with Muslims, too. That’s like what my father taught us. He called us the baby nation because we are a baby in knowledge of the divine Light and we had been deprived of the divine Light. So he taught us first to pray like this so we could receive. This is the act of receiving. And we needed God’s Light more than anything else, because we have not only been enslaved physically, but also the white people have enslaved us mentally. All our aspirations and desires were to be like our slave-managers, which was wrong. So this is the way my father taught us to try and receive Light from God. This is the first way he taught us to pray. Now we go through the regular rituals that the Muslims do — all the way up, you know, the regular way.

Sri Chinmoy: This is how you receive and this is how we go up to get His Light. I must not take any more of your time. I know how precious your time is.

Conversation — part III

But the higher course tells us to conquer the pleasure-life in ourselves, conquer the sense-world in ourselves, and replace them with purity’s beauty. There is one God and He is great. Worship the one true God — nothing more, nothing less. He is everything in everything, and everything of everything.

Herbert Muhammad: That’s right, that’s right.

Sri Chinmoy: I am so grateful to you, Mr. Herbert Muhammad. In Ali’s book I have read about you, how many times you advised Ali, encouraged him and inspired him to pray with you before the fight.

Muhammad Ali: You’ve read the book?

Sri Chinmoy: I have read the book. I have read it from cover to cover.

Muhammad Ali: Some of those things were made up. The religious matter, spiritual matter, that happened, you understand. But all of those other things didn’t happen. The writer took liberties and made some things happen just to make it more interesting.

Herbert Muhammad: They wanted to make a movie out of it. They wanted to make an exciting movie, but some of this didn’t happen. They did it without his knowledge.

Sri Chinmoy: They make it exciting.

Muhammad Ali: Hazrat Inayat Khan — I have read his lectures, poems. A man like this, who has this much wisdom, was he a man inspired by God also?

Sri Chinmoy: Yes, certainly.

Herbert Muhammad: No doubt about it.

Muhammad Ali: Did he have a big following, a man like that?

Herbert Muhammad: It doesn’t make any difference, you know, how many people follow you. If you really understand the world, you’ll see there are more people being led the wrong way than people being led the right way. But that doesn’t show that God-Power is weak; it shows that God-Power is independent. There is a time for a person to sleep. And when it’s time to wake up, you wake up. And it’s not meant for everybody to wake up, so a lot of people enjoy sleep. So let them sleep. Don’t worry them; don’t try.

Sri Chinmoy: You are telling my exact philosophy. These are my own exact words. That time is called God’s Hour. At God’s choice Hour for you, you are awakened. At God’s choice Hour for him, he is awakened. If somebody is fast asleep, he will definitely sleep until God’s Hour has dawned. I always say, “Sleep, baby, sleep. The hour has not yet struck for you.”

Herbert Muhammad: That’s right, that’s right.

Sri Chinmoy: His hour is not yet struck, so why should the poor fellow be bothered right now?

Herbert Muhammad: It is a hard thing sometimes when they do. But I don’t try to teach anybody but him, because I know he is awake. I don’t try to force a man not to sleep. If he enjoys sleep, then let him sleep. He is enjoying it; let him sleep. Don’t try to wake him up against his will, or he will fall right back to sleep just as quickly.

Sri Chinmoy: And you will become his enemy unnecessarily. You think you are doing him a big favour, but he won’t take it as a favour. He will be annoyed.

Conversation — part IV

Kanti: We have about seventy disciples in Puerto Rico.

Muhammad Ali: Oh, and do you continually try to convert and teach the people?

Sri Chinmoy: In our case we do not try to convert anybody. We try to offer our service, if people are interested, as you do. You offer your love to mankind and those who need your love and light come to you and receive. But we don’t try to convert, as they do in Christianity. We don’t say that if you don’t follow our path, you will never get God-Realisation. We would never say that.

Kanti: We have our meditations on Wednesdays and Sundays and we are open to anybody who is interested. We let people know that we are there, that we are meditating, and they come and join us if they are interested.

Sri Chinmoy: I shall be deeply honoured if both of you will come once to the United Nations when I hold meditations.

Herbert Muhammad: I will be very glad. I will give you our number and you can contact us. We would be very honoured to be at your meditation.

Sri Chinmoy: I have the deepest admiration for your father. In the book I read his writings, and they are full of such inner wisdom.

Herbert Muhammad: Yes, my father was a man who dedicated himself with love and compassion to the underprivileged people, the people that were in spiritual darkness. He had a unique way of awakening them, of getting their attention. He didn’t fully awaken them but he got their attention. See, this is the thing. We were so asleep, we were so dead, and here’s somebody who knows how to wake us up gradually. Now he says that we are like babies still but we are growing into adults. He said physically you look like a man, but if you could only see your spiritual self, your spiritual body is still crawling like a baby. It hasn’t been nourished yet; you need to have it nourished. So this is his way. This is his thinking, that we must grow spiritually as well as physically. And we must not give ourselves to emotionalism. We have been trained to get involved in emotionalism and that’s wrong. He says you must learn to understand God’s true Light and Reality, not just get a feeling of good. You go to the church and hear the preacher, and he gets you all excited and everything. Then you come out and someone asks, “What did he preach?” And you say, “I don’t know, but he sure talks good.” That’s wrong. My father taught us to try to learn how to have understanding and open our hearts to each other. I should look at you as a creature of God. No one has created you but God; I cannot reproduce you. You are the property of God, so I should treat you as God’s property. It is just like a son of Muhammad Ali. I’ll treat him very nice because he is Muhammad Ali’s boy, regardless of whether he is a bad boy or what. We should realise that all of us are creatures of God, and we should treat everyone well regardless of what he is. We shouldn’t mistreat anyone. In my father’s teachings, every time he closed the meeting, he would tell them, when you go out of here, do nothing to anyone that you wouldn’t do to yourself. Regardless of who he is, treat everybody right. Don’t take advantage of anyone. If you cannot give, do not take.

Muhammad Ali: In one of his books Hazrat said when we mistreat and harm others, we are certainly mistreating the Artist who created them.

Herbert Muhammad: That’s right. If we could realise this, it wouldn’t be difficult to feel the presence of God everywhere.

Sri Chinmoy: Absolutely true.

Herbert Muhammad: That’s exactly what I am saying, but just in different words. Hazrat is a master, a poet, a well-known philosopher. He knows how to speak. He was the master of the language.

Muhammad Ali: How does this one sound? He says: “Service to others is the rent we pay for our room here on earth.”

Sri Chinmoy: Most significant.

Muhammad Ali: Then he has one that says: “The truly great men of history never wanted to be great nor did they consider themselves great; all they wanted was the chance to be closer to God, the only great one Himself.”

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Conversation — part V

Sri Chinmoy: Very good! I am so happy. How I wish I could see his son. Is he here?

Herbert Muhammad: No, his son is not here. He’s in Chicago.

Sri Chinmoy: Ah, here is my student with the gift. To dearest Muhammad Ali, I am presenting a token gift to the greatest champion both in the outer world and in the inner world, Allah’s world.

Muhammad Ali: I know you will understand. We have a saying, “God is the greatest.” I always make it plain when they say I am the greatest. I always like to say I’ll accept the terms I am the greatest boxer, but that’s all.

Sri Chinmoy: But I wish to add that you may be the greatest as the instrument of God.

Muhammad Ali: That’s right.

Sri Chinmoy: You will definitely be the greatest instrument not only in the outer world but also in the inner world, if you always say, “Let Thy Will be done.”

Muhammad Ali: I won’t consider myself the greatest instrument. He’s got too many instruments.

Herbert Muhammad: Well, I’ll tell you this, Ali. I see that you are a greater instrument than Sri Chinmoy, but not in knowledge. Truly I speak with my heart. The reason you are a greater instrument is because everyone listens to you, while he can’t draw as big an audience. But if you could get his knowledge, you would be a greater instrument. If he could get in your body and everybody thought that was you, it would be a different story. But now, by my father naming him Muhammad Ali and by his being the greatest boxer and standing up for his beliefs against all odds, people listen to him. So right now he is the greatest instrument I know on earth.

Sri Chinmoy: You are so right.

Herbert Muhammad: Ali, with your strength you can move two or three people. But a man like Sri Chinmoy, with his faith, can move mountains. This is the difference between you and this spiritual man.

Muhammad Ali: True, true.

Conversation — part VI

TRUTH:

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The Eyes of Truth are bright,

The Head of Truth is upright.

The Gaze of Truth is straight,

Truth hath patience to wait.

The Voice of Truth is deep,

All that you sow you reap.

The Heart of Truth is warm,

And firm through rain or storm.

Truth stands above all sin;

Truth in the end shall win.

Wisdom’s message its rod;

Soul of Truth is God.

Immortal is its Past,

Truth shall hold to the last.

Sri Chinmoy: Most soulful, most significant. You have a most remarkable memory.

Muhammad Ali: I got that from Hazrat. I won’t take credit for that. I got it from his book.

Sri Chinmoy: Your memory is most remarkable.

Herbert Muhammad: I want to get a book from Hazrat’s son. Has Hazrat’s son written any books yet?

Sri Chinmoy: Yes, Pir Vilayat Khan. I have two or three books of his. He is a good friend of mine.

Herbert Muhammad: Is there any way I can get them? Is he in Paris? Where is he staying now?

Sri Chinmoy: Last Spring he was in New York, at Woodstock. He invited me to hold meditation with his disciples, so I went to visit him and I held meditation at his place. And he has been to the United Nations two or three times to attend my meditation meetings. He has come to my house, also, to pray with me.

Muhammad Ali: Is he anything like his father?

Herbert Muhammad: I don’t know, but I talked to him twice on the telephone. I bought some of his books from a certain occult bookstore and then this bookstore put him in touch with me. But both times I was thinking I couldn’t go and meet him. But I would love to meet him some day.

Sri Chinmoy: He is a most sincere spiritual teacher. I can say this without the least possible hesitation.

Herbert Muhammad: Whenever he is back in the States some time I would like to find some means to meet him and listen to some of his lectures.

Sri Chinmoy: Yes, he also holds meditations. I will present his books to you. I would like to present them to you.

Herbert Muhammad: Oh yes, in New York.

Sri Chinmoy: I will send them to you here.

Herbert Muhammad: I want to give you my card. Do you have a card, sir? Please write your number on it.

Sri Chinmoy: This is the office number. They will be able to tell you where I am. [To Kanti] You don’t keep my United Nations card for me? Forgive me, I don’t carry any card. [Sri Chinmoy presented Muhammad Ali with a copy of My Flute.] This is my first book. I have written over 250 books.

Muhammad Ali: Oh boy!

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Conversation — part VII

Sri Chinmoy: In my case, yes and no. From the highest spiritual point of view I have no enemy. I am absolutely one with God’s Will, and who can stand against God’s Will? You know, when you are absolutely one with Allah’s Will, nobody, no human being, no creation can stand against you. This problem is not so much directed towards me. Unfortunately, some Indians who are not sincere teachers have come to the West and have exploited the American sincerity or, let us say, credulity. So now people sometimes feel that all of us are of the same type. They suspect us. They come to us with a suspicious mind.

Herbert Muhammad: A man that doesn’t trust others doesn’t trust himself. A man sees a thief in everybody because he sees in himself the same thing.

Sri Chinmoy: Yes, it is like a reflection in a mirror. You can say that these people who come with a suspicious mind are unconsciously aware of their own lower propensities.

Herbert Muhammad: That’s right. That’s right.

Conversation — part VIII

Sri Chinmoy: This particular song that I have dedicated to you, I wish to have sung by my disciples who work at the United Nations. There are about sixty very dedicated disciples of mine who work at the United Nations. I will ask them to sing that song and I will send you a tape. I will be singing with them.

Muhammad Ali: What time is it?

Herbert Muhammad: Twelve o’clock.

Muhammad Ali: I have until two o’clock. What would you like to have? I have juice ...

Sri Chinmoy: Oh, only juice, please.

Muhammad Ali: How do you spell your first name?

Sri Chinmoy: C-H-I-N-M-O-Y.

Herbert Muhammad: What does that name mean?

Sri Chinmoy: Chinmoy means full of inner wisdom, full of divine consciousness.

Muhammad Ali: Where were you born?

Sri Chinmoy: I was born in India, in Bengal. It was previously called East Bengal, now it is called Bangladesh.

Herbert Muhammad: Where were you educated?

Sri Chinmoy: I was educated in South India. I was there for twenty years. Then I came to the West to serve.

Herbert Muhammad: Many people like yourself are here. More Indians than any other group. Why do you think it is that Indians are the enlightened ones going around the world teaching yoga and what not?

I read in a book “Love is the net where hearts are caught like fish.” I am going to take this one and I am going to read it. I have to leave now and I’ll be back. We are waiting for somebody. My heart will always be with you.

Sri Chinmoy: Thank you so much.

Conversation — part IX

Muhammad Ali: I have a small lecture I would like you to hear. Like you said, the “Golden Gloves” were once my goal. I got them. I was an amateur boxer at the Olympics and then a professional boxer. I found with all of this — the money and the so-called fame — still I felt hungry. Something was missing. I was raised in the Baptist church and we, as black people of America, have problems. We have our problems as the people of India have their problems and the people of Puerto Rico have their problems. I understand that God, Allah, or whatever you call Him, has sent prophets to certain parts of the world to inspire people who needed it. Like Jesus was sent to the people of Israel and the prophet Muhammad to Arabia.

I used to sit in church and I used to always feel that something was wrong in what I was seeing. The preacher was doing all kinds of things outside the church, and I said to myself, “This man is not acting like a man of God.” I was a little boy in Kentucky, twelve years old, with no knowledge of Islam or anything. Well, God is in all of us. Whether we believe in a religion or not, something inside tells us that this is right or that is wrong. Birds, animals — I am sure they pray in some kind of way or they know that there is something wiser. I knew that this was not the right place for me to get this knowledge. They had Jesus Christ painted as a white man with blond hair and blue eyes at the Lord’s Supper. And Peter, Paul, Mary and all the angels were white. Chinese die, Mexicans die, Indians die. If there is a Heaven, people from all races go there if they’re good. But all the people who went to Heaven, according to pictures, were white people.

Tarzan was the King of the Jungles in Africa. He was a white man, swinging around on limbs of trees. Batman, Superman, Miss America were always white. The good guys like the Lone Ranger in the Westerns rode white horses. White was always portrayed as good and black as bad. The black cat was bad luck. If I threaten you, I am going to blackmail you, or if you get put out of a fraternity group you get blackballed. Black was always identified with bad.

I have travelled the world over, and I find this Christian white supremacy teaching wherever I go. In Puerto Rico, the white Puerto Rican does a lot better than your black Puerto Rican. The black ones are looked down upon; they get the worst jobs. Your white Cubans are all brothers, but the darker complexioned ones are not. This European, Caucasian mentality has now spread over the world. In Egypt, the black ones are the servants. Why? Because when the white American came to countries such as this and mated with the women, he would only educate the babies which were more like him. He kept the dark ones illiterate; so today you have a problem.

I have asked a few Puerto Ricans here questions. I’m curious. I said, “Do you all have problems?” They said, “Oh, problems here are worse.” This happens in every country I go to. Why do you think? Christianity. You’ve had the white people with all the money, all the airplanes, all the hotels, all the power, and the blacks as the servants. We had to wait until we died to go to Heaven and if we weren’t good, we would go to hell and be burned up. But the same people who taught us this didn’t seem to believe it themselves. They wanted money, they wanted earthly things; but they told us go to church and follow Jesus. They went to Africa with the Bible and the cross. Now the Africans are waking up and they're running Christianity out because the church is taking all the wealth.

So, as a little boy, I just knew something was wrong, and my goal was to help my people. Now, I want to help all people who want to be helped, regardless of race, creed or colour. I used to cry at night in bed. I used to burst into tears thinking about God and the love of God, how I wanted to help people and how I wished more people could see what they were missing. You just feel bad to realise that there are not many of us thinking like this. I used to lie in the bed at night and cry when black people like Martin Luther King were marching and getting water poured on them and getting beaten up. I always wanted to do something to free my people; I always wanted to serve God. But I was confused — one little black boy in Louisville, Kentucky, in America. There were Catholics, Baptists, Holy Rollers, Jehovah’s Witnesses, God and Christ — all kinds of religions. I was confused, you understand. I didn’t know what was right. I had no guidance, no teacher.

Finally, one day I walked into a Muslim mosque in Miami, Florida, and heard this Islamic teaching. I heard how we have been robbed of our knowledge, our language, our nationality. The worst-off people on the planet mentally and spiritually are the black ones of America. Chinese are named after China, Cubans are named after Cuba, Indians are named after India, Puerto Ricans are named after Puerto Rico, Hawaiians are named after Hawaii, Mexicans are named after Mexico, Germans are named after Germany. All people are named after a country. Now what country is named Negro?

We were named after white people. Negroes got names like George Washington, Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Jones, Mr. Johnson, Mr. Clay. Cassius Clay was a white slave-master. You know American history. If a white man had five slaves and his name was Jones, the slaves were branded Jones’ property. If you were sold to Mr. Washington, you were Washington’s property. Slaves were identified as servants of certain masters. Well, today we’re free, but we still have our slave names. So now there’s a big awakening in America of all these ex-slaves who want to find out who their ancestors were and get names to fit them. I mean, if an Indian were named Mr. Robert Jones, it wouldn’t look right. So all people can be distinguished by their name. Mr. White Cloud or Silver Moon or Morning Star is Indian, Mr. Khrushchev is Russian. We identify people by their names, but the American black man can’t be identified in this way.

Also, we were robbed of our language. You speak another language and you also speak English. America has people from practically everywhere in the world. Although they have never seen their countries, they still know some of their language. But not the black man in America! He is the only one that’s been robbed of all his language, robbed of his name, robbed of his religion, robbed of his God. So you have a man who is dead mentally who calls himself a Negro.

About Allah we’ve been taught in the person of the Honourable Elijah Muhammad, who came to America in 1930. He was a wise man inspired by God to plant the seed of truth to wake up these mentally dead people who call themselves Negroes, who have been here for three or four hundred years without true knowledge of God or true knowledge of themselves or anybody else. That was the Muslim programme. Now it has grown to about two million strong and we’ve got mosques in every city in America. This is why I am who I am today. I walked into a Muslim Temple and heard that Cassius Clay was not my name. I found out that Islam was the religion of my people in Asia and Africa before we were brought to America, and still is today. I found out that I shouldn’t eat pork and certain meats, and one day I would like to be like you, a vegetarian, which is the best. All this knowledge came from the Elijah Muhammad.

I found out that America is not my country. We asked why we should go to war when the Japanese never lynched us, the Viet Cong never lynched us. America might go to war with India. America might go to war with a Muslim nation. I can’t pick up a rifle and shoot my brothers because America is at war with a Muslim nation. I said, “Take me to jail.” I wouldn’t go to Viet Nam. Those Asiatic people who have been oppressed have never bothered me. And America might have some selfish reason there, so she wants me to go to war to kill off the Viet Cong. I’d rather go to jail than to kill.

See, if it weren’t for the Honourable Elijah Muhammad’s Islamic programme and his teaching, I wouldn’t be talking to you now. If I were a Christian and my name was Clay and I was eating pork and wasn’t religious, I wouldn’t talk to you nor would you want to talk to me. What has made you want to see me is what you’ve been reading about me. What you’ve been seeing and feeling in me is the Islamic teaching. Why am I what I am? Why am I great? Why am I world-acclaimed? Why can I attract people such as yourself? Why did I recognise you? Because of the Islamic teaching. I’ve made 37 million dollars in the past five years, and I’m contracted for 25 million this year. Yet still I’ll give it all up and I’ll give up the championship before I’ll quit fighting for God’s cause and helping little people. I can give it all up and go to jail if it means turning down Allah and religion.

What I’m saying is that it’s unusual for a man of my calibre and world fame to even want to talk about these things. I’m in Heaven now; I’m in peace here. But Frank Sinatra, Sidney Poitier, John Wayne, all the big movie stars that America has produced — what we are doing here is the last thing they would want to do. You’re the last man they would want to talk to. Once they get so much wealth and so many worldly things, they forget about God. Mostly poor people come to religion, people who want something after they die because they feel that they can’t get it now. But the man who owns this hotel, the man you see out on the beach today who owns buildings in New York City — these men don’t care about God. And God never came after these men, according to the stories. God always went to the poor people. Jesus, God’s prophets, they all went to the little people. The rest of them were too proud; they had too much.

You remember Hazrat Ali? He was a great warrior of the Prophet Muhammad. He was the King of a nation. I cried when I read his story. He rode a donkey, he wore old coarse clothes, he slept on the ground, he wouldn’t eat much. Religious men like to fast a lot because when they get hungry they feel for the poor people. Hazrat was a king and the commander of armies, but although he was the richest man in the world at that time, he walked the streets helping people. The only time he ever became angry was when he found out that his daughter was saving some money. He said, “People are out there hungry and you are here saving that money. Go give that money to somebody who is hungry.” He died in a mosque, praying. Somebody hit him over the head with something, and he was drenched in blood. The Muslims went and caught the man who hit him and brought him back in ropes. And they asked Hazrat what they should do with him. Hazrat said, “Why do you treat your fellow human being so cruelly? Can’t you see his ropes are too tight? Loosen his ropes.” Then he died. This man had hit him and he said, “His ropes are too tight.” He still didn’t hate him for it.

When I was a little boy crying in my bed at home, wanting to help my people, looking for God, I used to go out in the night and wait for God to tell me what to do. White people were killing black people and lynching them and hanging them from trees and beating up our women during demonstrations and civil rights marches. I always wanted to do something. I wanted to get a rifle and get on top of the building and just shoot all those evil people, but that wasn’t the way. So I used to want God to come to me. I always used to say, “God, where are You at? Something’s wrong. I know the preacher is not telling me the truth. I see the Pope of Rome saying he loves, but still they have the world enslaved and the blacks are catching hell.” I always knew something was wrong.

So all through my life I’ve been looking to meet people like you, but I didn’t know it. Step by step, like you say, you go higher and higher. I did. First I went to the church — I went to the Catholic church, I went to the Baptist church, I went to Black Panther meetings, I went to radical black groups, but I never saw what I wanted.

Then I walked into this Islamic Temple and everybody was so peaceful. The sisters had on long dresses. They were sitting on one side, the men were sitting on the other side. No alcohol, no drinking, no smoking, no pork products; everybody was so clean. In America this is unusual among black people because they were always fighting and killing and drinking whiskey. But the Muslims were the cleanest of all the people and I said this is what I want.

One thing led to another. I started spouting poetry. I started checking on people like Hazrat Inayat Khan. And then I would spout some of his stuff, like the heart talk I gave at Harvard. That’s from his book. Everybody liked it. You read about it. So everything has its purpose in life. Hazrat said everything is created to accomplish a purpose. Trees have a purpose, the moon has a purpose, rain and snow have a purpose, insects, flies, cats, dogs, rats, horses, everything Allah created has a purpose. Regardless of how large or how small, it was put here for a purpose. And it is the knowing of that purpose which enables every soul to fulfil it. A wise man is he who knows his life’s purpose. Ten men with the knowledge of their purpose are more powerful than a thousand working from morning till night. So my purpose is to be a spiritual man, to do all I can to help God, to help God’s creatures and to meet other men such as yourself who can teach me more about God; and also to be a world champion so that when I talk, the world will hear me, so little minority groups can feel proud and say, “We have a champion.”

Tears came to my eyes; I had to keep from crying when you played that song about me. I was waiting for the day when the world would recognise me as a boxer and I could take that fame and go and spread God’s Word with it. In other words, boxing introduces me to the audience. Athletes get a lot of recognition. Football players get more recognition than men of God. I admire you. I see you as a great, great man. I want to be like you, but I overheard a man in the hotel lobby ask, “Who is he?” He doesn’t understand. But they all recognise me.

You’re welcome if you want to watch me box today in the gymnasium. You could come at two o’clock. Today in the gymnasium there’ll be about three or four hundred people from all races. I could take the mike and I could say, “I have a brother here that you have to hear. I can’t explain, but I wouldn’t have him here if he didn’t have a message and I would like for him to talk for fifteen minutes.” Introduce yourself, and then after this I will continue training. Three hundred people will sit there and listen to you because we live in a world where they recognise athletes, they recognise people with money, they recognise fame. I always wanted God to put me up here in this world so I could turn around and then tell the world about God.

You go fishing, you put the bait out to catch the fish. He sees a worm and bites it, but he gets a hook. He didn’t think about that. But he got caught. The worm was the bait. I look at myself as bait, see? I’m out here dangling and everybody is saying, “Muhammad Ali! Oh, he’s the greatest,” and then we say we are going to talk to them. After they come to see me, they get hooked with the truth and the love of God, and they go away saying, “I want to hear more of this.” There are many fish out there if they just had a chance to hear it. But the trouble is getting them together where they will listen. But I could be the bait.

Sri Chinmoy: That is most kind of you. It is your heart’s magnanimity, your heart’s boundless magnanimity that is speaking.

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Conversation — part X

Muhammad Ali: Yes, sir.

Sri Chinmoy: You are not like the preachers who speak one thing in the pulpit and do something else in their lives. Their words are one thing and their actions are a different matter altogether. In your case, people see something in you that they don’t see in other boxers. They see that you live the truth that you preach. The light that you want to offer, you embody. That is why you are a supremely chosen instrument, because you have made your heart pure. You have made your heart the temple of truth so that Allah can enter into you and perform His divine activities.

Muhammad Ali: Yes, sir.

Sri Chinmoy: When I wrote the poem at Kennedy Airport, I said, “Sleepless you cry for Allah’s Grace, deathless you fight for the Muslim race.” Sleepless you cry for Allah’s Grace, therefore, your victory is Allah’s Victory. Your victory is victory over ignorance. You are fighting for a supreme cause, and for that Allah is most pleased with you, most proud of you. This I am saying on the strength of my own inner oneness with the Inner Pilot, whom you call Allah and I call Supreme. It is your heart, the receptivity of your heart, the pure heart which you are, which makes the world receive you, welcome you and embrace you as its very own.

You are the greatest. The world fully accepts this. In my song I have said that you are greater than the greatest. With your kind permission I wish to explain this. “The greatest” is an ever-transcending term. You wanted to win the Golden Gloves, and you did win them. Then you wanted to transcend. You wanted to be the Olympic champion. You are the world’s greatest champion. Now you want something else from your life. You are fighting for the cause of the Muslim race. Something more you are doing: you are trying to spread the universal love by invoking Allah’s Grace.

Muhammad Ali: There’s something else I heard that I wanted you to give your approval of. Tell me what you think about this. Here it says: “The creation of the universe caused God no mental exertion. His existence is eternal. He didn’t come into being in some period of time, nor was He created. His existence does not amount to the coming into the existence from non-existence. He is beyond the reach of time. He has no following to share His greatness, no children to inherit His mighty domain. He was before time and space came into existence. Suns and solar systems are moving in space according to the ways ordained by Him. And they cover gigantic distances in their journeys. He fully knows the detail of all the gigantic solar systems in space and He sees that each works according to the plan set by Him. And they are not able to thank Him as much as His Kindness and Mercy deserves. Because if He willed so, He could destroy things created by Him in such a way that they would cease to exist and disappear into nothingness. To annihilate the total universe after having created it is no more difficult for Him than to make the original creation out of nothing. Again there would be no time, no space. Days, hours, minutes, years shall disappear and the earth’s sun, moon and galaxies shall all vanish into nothingness. Only He will remain the Supreme Lord, the Grand Architect of the universe.

“He stops those who try to match their power with Him. He destroys those who disobey Him. He overcomes those who behave as His enemies. But to those who put their trust in Him and to those who beg of Him, He always grants according to their works and their wants. And to those who are helpful, loving and charitable toward others, He always bestows His Blessings. Allah, God, the Originator of all energy, matter, creatures and forms of life did this without having any model or any pattern or sample before Him; nor was He helped in His creation by any other God before Him. He knows the life history of every drop of rain. He knows the life history of every grain of sand. He knows how the wind has blown it from place to place and how one day it shall come to an end. He knows under which leaf and inside the bark of which tree mosquitoes live and multiply. He knows the nests of birds and the peaks of mountains. He knows the songs birds sing in the shade of trees. He has not to make an effort to understand these things.”

It goes on, but I am still studying it. It explains Allah, God, what it is that we all pray to. He has no ears though He hears. He has no eyes though He sees. He remembers everything without the aid of mind or memory. He could see before there was any created thing to see. He’s explaining the Supreme Power we are talking about. These are some of the things that I’ve gotten from Hazrat Ali. He was the holy man who followed the Prophet Muhammad of Arabia fourteen hundred years ago. I met the Shah of Iran. The Shah of Iran gave me a book. It’s in Arabic but he had it translated into English. It’s on Hazrat Ali, who was a great writer, spiritual man and poet, who fought and rode with the Prophet Muhammad of Arabia. One day he was fighting with the Turks or somebody and Hazrat Ali’s enemy fell to the ground. He started to kill him but then he stopped. He said, “Run, friend! Get up and run.” So the enemy said, “Hazrat, if you hadn’t gotten me in this position, I would have killed you.” Hazrat said, “Just because you would kill me, that’s no reason I should kill you.” He said that’s no good; that’s not a good enough reason. Isn’t it strange how spiritual he was? He said, “That’s not a good enough reason for me to kill you — just because you would kill me.” The enemy said, “Hazrat, I heard that you have never refused a beggar. I am asking for your sword. If you give me your sword I will kill you.” Hazrat gave him his sword on the battle ground. He said, “None can stop my death when it comes and none can kill me before it’s time.” The other one said, “Hazrat, you have brought me to tears. You are not merely a great man. Not only did you refuse to kill your enemy, but you even gave me a chance to kill you because you believed that God would protect you. May I ride with you and fight for you on your side?” Hazrat said, “No, friend, don’t fight for me. Fight for truth and justice.” And they got him a horse and rode off. This is a real story on the battleground.

And one day, a lady was working in her house and she had so much work to do that she asked Hazrat to help her. She didn’t recognise him; she didn’t know he was the King and a general of the whole army. Hazrat moved furniture and worked in the house. As he left on his donkey, some thirty or forty people gathered outside and said, “Do you know who that was? That was the King of the country; that was Hazrat.” She said, “I never would have recognised him. He worked as a loyal servant all day.” You understand? He was so warm, he was so great. It was his country, he was the King; yet he worked for this lady all day. It shows you how humble he was.

There are many stories like this. One day Hazrat was going to the mosque to pray when he saw a slave girl crying. He said, “What is the matter?” She said, “Well, my master sent me to buy some dates and some plums, but they were too dry. He didn’t like them and he told me to take them back and get the money back. But the fruit man wouldn’t take them back, so the master won’t let me come home. I don’t know what to do.” So Hazrat said, “Come with me.” He took her down to the fruiterer and said, “Could you give this girl her money back?” The man was a newcomer to the village and he didn’t recognise Hazrat, so he became rude. He started arguing, “I said I am not going to give it back to her, and I don’t care who you are.” A passer-by recognised Hazrat and told the fruiterer that this was Hazrat. He said, “Oh, King Hazrat, I’m so sorry,” and he gave the girl her money back. Hazrat said, “Isn’t it a shame that you are so willing to bow to power and might but not to this little girl’s humble request?” He said, “How cruel of you to treat this little girl so badly when you are so nice to the King.” By that time the man who owned the girl had come and he said, “Hazrat, I am so sorry for the confusion she has caused. Will you forgive me?” Hazrat said, “Have you got any right to expect forgiveness from me or from God who is over you, when you will not forgive this little girl who is under you?” Wasn’t that beautiful? “You won’t forgive her and now you want God and me to forgive you.” He said, “You people only profess the word of Islam, but you don’t believe in it.”

You know, there are so many heart-warming stories that only a man like you or me would really understand or appreciate. I think this is why I am so thankful to Allah for my fame in the world today. This is the day of automation, of jet planes, temptation, discotheques, mini-skirts, nude women, prostitution, dope. We live in a hard day. During the days of Hazrat, Jesus and the Prophet Muhammad, the world wasn’t as big or as complicated as it is now. They talked to thirty or forty people. But we really have a job today. God’s prophets today would really have a headache if they had to deal with all the televisions, the nightclubs and the pretty cars. You understand? You know, people are dancing and drinking, and riding in pretty cars, and you are trying to tell them about God. You look like a square; you look like a drag. They all say, “I’ll see you later.” We have so much to fight today. We have a harder job today than they had during the days of Jesus. He didn’t have to go up against television, movies, dope and jet planes.

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Conversation — part XI

This is for you as you eternally are. We are praying to Allah to bless us who want to be His devoted instruments, to please Him in His own way. This is my oneness-heart I am offering to you.

Muhammad Ali: Thank you, thank you. I have many, many awards like this from Kings, Queens, Presidents. But this will be right over all the rest of them. I would like to give you the Muslim hug. [Muhammad Ali gave Sri Chinmoy the Muslim hug.]

Sri Chinmoy: Our Indian way is like this. [Sri Chinmoy folds his hands.] When I do this it means that I bow to the presence of Allah which I feel and see inside you. When I fold my hands in the Indian way, it means that I am bowing to Allah inside you. And when you do the same thing, at that time you are worshipping Allah inside my heart. This is our tradition.

Muhammad Ali: Thank you. Let’s get some refreshments. Here’s some orange juice.

Sri Chinmoy: Thank you. Now, may I ask you something?

Muhammad Ali: Yes, sir.

Sri Chinmoy: When you speak in the ring, is there any special inner reason? Of course, you don’t have to answer if you don’t want to.

Muhammad Ali: Oh, I didn’t know you noticed that.

Sri Chinmoy: I’ve read your autobiography, so that’s why I know.

Muhammad Ali: In the world of sports, when fear leaves you, it goes into your adversary. When I display confidence, this weakens my opponent. For example, when I boxed with Joe Frazier I would say to him, “It is impossible for you to whip me; you are too ugly. You are too ugly to represent the black people. The champion should be beautiful, like me. I am pretty; you are ugly.” This would make him mad. He would get angry and lose his head and get off guard. I am boxing a fellow and we’re in a clinch. We close in and I might say to him, “It’s impossible for you to beat me tonight. I’m fighting for God, I’m working for God. God is with me. I’ve too much power for you.” This puts fear into the man. It worries him. It makes my work a little bit easier. But sometimes I say things which will make him mad like, “Look at that beautiful girl sitting out there. She’s watching me beat you up.” This idea is to take his mind off the fight and to frustrate him. You know, when a man is real angry, he can’t think. I just keep a cool head. When I talk to him, I belittle him, you know. I’ll say things to him like, “You don’t stand a chance. You’re too ugly to be the world champion. I cannot let you win tonight; you’re too ugly.” It’s a psychological thing.

Sri Chinmoy: Certainly it is.

Muhammad Ali: I knocked George Foreman out in Africa. When I fight him again, in the first round I’ll say, “I’m going to knock you out again tonight. But this time it won’t be round seven; it’s going to be round four.” And when round four comes, unconsciously he starts trying to prove that I won’t.

It all depends on whom I’m fighting. And also it’s publicity. Promoters pay me because I draw a crowd. Promoters pay me one million in American money. After taxes and expenses I only keep three hundred thousand, and this money I use to help people. In New York City, I don’t know if you heard about it, but there was an old folks home going out of business.

Sri Chinmoy: Yes, yes, I read about it in the newspapers.

Muhammad Ali: They needed a hundred thousand dollars, so I gave them a hundred thousand dollars because forty-five old people were going to be put out on the street. My heart just couldn’t let this happen to these old people. We all are going to get old, and I couldn’t let these old people be put out in the streets. There is so much charity I try to do — school buses, and drug rehabilitation centres, and the problems that black America’s got. I’m trying to help, but the money I have is so little. I’m on empty now because I give away as much as I can to worthy people, not just anybody.

I want to do all I can now while I’m on top, while I’m drawing people. My talking, my writing poems, my Ali shuffle, predicting the rounds, all these little gimmicks make promoters pay me. I read something in Hazrat’s book. He said the man who has no imagination stands on the earth. He has no wings. He cannot fly. You have to have an imagination when you start your journey. You know the countries you want to go to, so you have to have imagination. A man who doesn’t have an imagination is still standing. Like in India, where you were born, some people you knew as a child are probably still standing around on the street doing nothing, while you are going around the world because you had imagination.

Sri Chinmoy: Imagination is a world of its own. It is a reality, only we don’t live in that reality-world. We feel that imagination is something mental, an hallucination. What you are saying is so true, absolutely true. From the spiritual point of view imagination is a real world which we are trying to bring to the fore.

Muhammad Ali: Right.

Sri Chinmoy: It is inside us.

Muhammad Ali: So in answer to your question, talking is just part of my imagination of ways to capture the public, the newspaper people. It captures the people who have the money to buy the tickets which makes me a good salary so I can go out and help as many people as I can. Talking is just salesmanship, just one of the things which is going to make me colourful while I stand out over the average boxer.

Sri Chinmoy: I am so grateful to you for illumining me about this question I have had. Sometimes we feel that when we talk we may lose our power of concentration. You are concentrating to knock your opponent down, but when you talk you may lose some of your physical power, mental power. But you have all confidence.

Muhammad Ali: Yes, I do. You are right. And I don’t talk all the time. Sometimes it’s not the time to talk. Sometimes a thing is close. It’s a little strenuous. It’s painful and you have to be serious. But Allah blesses me so I am able to feel the moment I should say something. I just don’t do it unnecessarily. There is always a reason.

Sri Chinmoy: I understand. When it is time for you to muster all your power of concentration, at that time you do.

Muhammad Ali: Right. For example, my last Frazier fight, no talking. My last fight in Manila I didn’t do any talking.

Sri Chinmoy: In your book the chapter on Manila is very, very short compared to the others.

Muhammad Ali: You know that book well.

Sri Chinmoy: I enjoyed it very much. Your heart’s nobility impressed me most. At the beginning, when you lost to Norton, your managers and others wouldn’t allow him to come near you. At that time, to me you were the real winner because you allowed him to come to your room. “This is his day; let him come,” you said. So in God’s Eye, Allah’s Eye, you were the winner. In my eye you were the winner, because your heart’s magnanimity saw that he is also Allah’s son. Everybody is Allah, so you allowed him to come to your room.

Muhammad Ali: Yes, sir.

Sri Chinmoy: When I read that I was so moved and so proud of you. You were all oneness with Allah. An ordinary human being wouldn’t have been able to do that. He would have said, “Oh, Norton is my worst enemy. I don’t want to see his face.” But you didn’t do that. They wanted to show that he was the victor and you were the vanquished, so they took pictures. It was a kind of trick. But in spite of knowing that there was some kind of trick behind it or some wrong motive, your heart’s magnanimity said, “All right, I accept it. Allah’s Will is now my will.” That very thing has impressed me so deeply. In Allah’s Heart you are the real winner. I tell you, assuredly you are the real winner, not he.

Muhammad Ali: Allah blessed me, though, a year later. I had a comeback and won the victory.

Sri Chinmoy: So you did it?

Muhammad Ali: Allah blessed me to come back and win.

Sri Chinmoy: So you did it. You defeated him. I was reading that you have confidence in yourself. That confidence is Allah’s confidence in you, and you are offering it to mankind. It is not your confidence. It is Allah’s confidence in you that you are offering each time you talk.

Muhammad Ali: Yes, sir. Well, I want you to know one thing, when I get home, when we get home, we are going to visit you in New York.

Sri Chinmoy: Please do! I will be deeply honoured. I will be in Australia in March, and in June I will be in Europe but easily you can see me in April or May. Do you come to New York quite often? Where is your headquarters? Chicago?

Muhammad Ali: Chicago, but I’m always in the Park Lane Hotel right down at Central Park and Seventh Avenue. What I want to say, brother, to change the subject, I am going to train at two o’clock. If you want to see it, I’ll make arrangements. Would you like to see me box today, if you have time?

Sri Chinmoy: I will be very happy to see you.

Muhammad Ali: I was going to take you down now and show you where it’s going to be. Then I was going to get permission for you and your party to come through, because they charge $5 a head.

Sri Chinmoy: Thank you. Another thing that I saw in the book is your heart’s nobility. When you wanted the great boxer Joe Louis to help you, he refused. Then what happened? He was in trouble; he didn’t have any money, and you gave him a thousand dollars. Somebody didn’t help you, but you willingly helped him. Look at your heart’s magnanimity! You gave him money, you gave him hope and you didn’t go to Europe. That was your heart’s magnanimity.

Muhammad Ali: You remember everything.

Sri Chinmoy: These are the signs of a really pure heart, a really pure heart! The 17th was your birthday. Did you receive my cable?

Muhammad Ali: I don’t remember the cable. Did you send it here?

Sri Chinmoy: I sent it from the United Nations, not here but to Chicago, I think.

Muhammad Ali: Well, I wasn’t in Chicago at the time. It’s probably still there.

[Leaving elevator now; tape cut off once again at this point.]

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Muhammad Ali<sup>2</sup>

Muhammad Ali, Muhammad Ali, Champion Ali,

Sleepless you cry for Allah’s Grace,

Muhammad Ali, Muhammad Ali, Champion Ali!

Shall smash the frown of ignorance-night.

Your victory’s smile is the pole-star guide.

Editor's note